Printed minutes
Argyll and Bute Council · 18 December 2024
Back to Planning, Protective Services and Licensing Committee — 18 December 2024 and its agenda
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MINUTES of MEETING of PLANNING, PROTECTIVE SERVICES AND LICENSING COMMITTEE held BY MICROSOFT TEAMS on WEDNESDAY, 18 DECEMBER 2024 Present: Councillor Kieron Green (Chair) Councillor John Armour Councillor Gordon Blair Councillor Amanda Hampsey Councillor Daniel Hampsey Councillor Graham Hardie Councillor Fiona Howard Councillor Mark Irvine Councillor Dougie Philand Councillor Peter Wallace Attending: Shona Barton, Governance Manager David Walker, Solicitor David Brown, Applicant Sergeant Ben Rusden, Police Scotland 1. APOLOGIES FOR ABSENCE Apologies for absence were received from Councillors Jan Brown, Audrey Forrest, Andrew Kain and Paul Kennedy. 2. DECLARATIONS OF INTEREST There were no declarations of interest. 3. CIVIC GOVERNMENT (SCOTLAND) ACT 1982: APPLICATION FOR RENEWAL OF A TAXI DRIVER LICENCE (D BROWN, DUNOON) The Chair welcomed everyone to the meeting. In line with recent legislation for Civic Government Hearings, the parties (and any representatives) were given the options for participating in the meeting today. The options available were by video call, by audio call or by written submission. For this hearing the Applicant opted to proceed by audio call and Mr Brown joined the meeting by telephone. Police Scotland also opted to proceed by audio call and Sergeant Ben Rusden joined the meeting by telephone. The Chair advised that this application had previously been before the PPSL Committee on 18 September 2024 where it was agreed to continue consideration of the application and hold a fresh hearing in 3 months time to allow the Applicant to reflect on concerns raised by the Committee at that meeting. The Chair outlined the procedure that would be followed and invited the Applicant to speak in support of his application. APPLICANT Mr Brown advised that he would be lost without his licence as it was his reason to get up in the morning, to meet people, support his regular customers, and make some extra money. He said he was sorry for what had happened and that he accepted full responsibility for his actions.
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QUESTIONS FROM POLICE SCOTLAND Sergeant Rusden confirmed that he had no questions. POLICE SCOTLAND Sergeant Rusden referred to a letter dated 17 June 2024 from the Divisional Commander, which advised that the Applicant had been convicted of a road traffic offence and received a fixed penalty and 3 penalty points as a result of an incident which had taken place on 3 May 2024. He advised that Mr Brown had reported this incident to the Police when it happened. QUESTIONS FROM APPLICANT Mr Brown confirmed that he had no questions. MEMBERS’ QUESTIONS Councillor Green sought and received confirmation from Sergeant Rusden that there were no further incidents drawn to the attention of the Police since this application was before the Committee in September. Councillor Green asked Mr Brown if he’d had time to reflect on his driving over the last 3 months. Mr Brown said that there had been no issues. Councillor Blair asked Mr Brown if he’d had the opportunity of undertaking a driving assessment as was suggested at the previous meeting. Mr Brown advised that he had 2 or 3 friends that were advanced driving instructors and he had asked if they would sit with him. He said they had advised that this was not necessary as he had been driving for years. Councillor Armour sought and received confirmation from Mr Brown that he was advised that an assessment of his driving was not necessary. Councillor Green sought and received confirmation from Mr Brown that he had nothing further to say about his driving. He said that he took full responsibility for what had happened and that he was very sorry for that. SUMMING UP Police Scotland Sergeant Rusden advised that Mr Brown had received the lowest level of penalty for this type of incident as the gentleman involved had not received a significant injury. He confirmed that Mr Brown had reported the incident at the time and that it was also reported by a member of the public and dash cam footage was obtained. Applicant Mr Brown said that he accepted full responsibility for what had happened and that he was sorry. He advised that he would be lost without his licence. When asked, both parties confirmed that they had received a fair hearing.
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DEBATE Councillor Hardie referred to Sergeant Rusden advising that the Applicant had received the lowest penalty possible and advised that he felt that he had shown genuine remorse. He noted that the Applicant had received confirmation from advanced driving instructors that there was no need to undergo a driving assessment and he advised that he could see no reason not to accept the renewal of the licence. Councillor Armour sought and received confirmation from the Council’s Solicitor that the Committee could grant the licence for a period less than 3 years. Councillor Blair sought and received confirmation from the Council’s Solicitor that the Committee could grant the licence for a shorter period than the maximum. Councillor Blair referred to the previous hearing when the Committee heard that this was the second time the Applicant had been involved in an incident with a pedestrian. He said he was disappointed that he had not taken the opportunity since the last meeting to undertake some sort of driving assessment. He said he was not sure if Mr Brown understood the seriousness of the situation. He advised that he understood he had to make a living, and, having received confirmation that the Committee could grant the licence for a period less than 3 years, he suggested granting the licence for one year as he felt this would put his mind at rest. Councillor Irvine commented that he was not at the previous hearing. He said that Councillor Blair made some valid points, but having now heard that there had been a previous incident, he had serious concerns about protection of the public. He advised that while he appreciated Mr Brown’s passion for the role, he shared Councillor Blair’s concerns that some sort of driving assessment with a professional body had not been undertaken since the last hearing. He said he would have serious reservations about even a one year renewal. Councillor Howard said that she had hoped that the delay in determining this application would have given the Applicant the time to think about what had happened. She advised that she was also disappointed that a driving assessment had not been undertaken. She noted that he had received a minimum penalty for the last offence and as it was a while ago, said she would be minded to grant the licence for one year, provided that, if anything further was to happen, it would be reported to the Committee before the year was up. Councillor Green said it was his own view that there would be not much difference between granting the licence for one year or 3 years as if another incident were to occur, Police Scotland could report that to the licensing authority, which would trigger a further hearing. To grant for one year would mean the Applicant having to reapply in a years time and, potentially, if the offence was still on the Police system, the Police may submit another representation which would trigger another hearing. He advised that for him, it came back to the standards that Members would expect from a taxi driver, particularly while on duty, and the impression the public would have of the licensing authority whether the licence was granted or not. Councillor Armour sought and received confirmation from the Council’s Solicitor that this hearing was for consideration of an application for renewal of a taxi driver licence, which had been objected to, and was not as a result of the incident which had occurred.
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Councillor Armour sought and received confirmation from the Council’s Solicitor that when the incident occurred this was not reported to the licensing authority. Councillor Howard advised that she thought if the licence was granted for one year this would be at the back of Mr Brown’s mind and he would be more mindful and conscious of the way he was driving. She said she thought that would be more effective that granting the licence for 3 years. Councillor Irvine advised that he was concerned that Police Scotland had not reported the second incident to the licensing authority. He said he was not sure if this was because of the severity of the incident or because it was not flagged up on the system. He advised that he had concerns about protecting the public and waiting until something more serious occurred. He said he would not want to hear about a serious incident or fatality as a result of the Committee not applying some sort of measure to protect the public. He advised that he was not minded to support renewal of the licence. Motion To agree to grant the renewal of Mr Brown’s Taxi Driver Licence for one year. Moved by Councillor Graham Hardie, seconded by Councillor Fiona Howard. Amendment To agree to refuse the renewal of Mr Brown’s Taxi Driver Licence on the grounds of public safety. Moved by Councillor Mark Irvine, seconded by Councillor Kieron Green. A vote was taken by calling the roll. Motion Amendment Councillor Armour Councillor Blair Councillor A Hampsey Councillor Green Councillor D Hampsey Councillor Irvine Councillor Hardie Councillor Howard Councillor Philand Councillor Wallace The Motion was carried by 7 votes to 3 and the Committee resolved accordingly. DECISION The Committee agreed to grant the renewal of Mr Brown’s Taxi Driver Licence for a period of one year and noted that he would receive written confirmation of this within 7 days. (Reference: Report by Head of Legal and Regulatory Support, submitted)